Ginevra Requests the Honor of your Presence and Critique

Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	on June 11 2007 Inspired by Alcuin’s poem posted last week, I researched Ginevra de’ Benci and then tried to craft what might be going on in her own mind in this mysterious painting, while complementing Alcuin’s form. This was a woman who was married at age 16 to a man more than twice her age. She was known for being both beautiful and intelligent, and for being in love with another man leading to an ill-fated love affair. Although the painting by Leonardo is thought to be a marriage portrait, there is a school of thought that believes it was really commissioned by her lover. Juniper, the tree haloing her head, represents chastity, but for a wedding portrait, people have long wondered why she looks so somber.
Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	on June 12 2007 I think this piece isn't getting hits because it's being confused by title with last weeks'. So I changed it. I really welcome feedback because this was an experiment and a bit of a risk and a lot of work, and as a new writer, if don't get gentle feedback I'll keep torturing the rest of you with the same old crap.
Melden Fred Associate, 1848 posts	on June 12 2007 The original was written in iambic (duh-DA) rhythm with a meter of 5-5-3-3-5. I cheated a bit in a few places, such as S1L5 (the REST of his LIFE to FIND a COM-for-ting LEA. Cheating a bit is often necessary to keep a phrase sensible and skipping along, which the comedic theme required. However, the words I cheated on are ones normally not emphasized: “of the” and “-forting” in this case. Compare this to your first line: you SAY your de-SIRE BURNS a LI-ra for ME. The “-ra for” are like my example – technically incorrect, but reading OK because of the normal deemphasis of the syllables. But the only way to read the “desire” right is to sound it as, “DE-sire”, which is definitely awkward. In L2, the same problem occurs at “shade ‘neath this juniper”. “Shade” and “neath” demand to both be emphasized together. To summarize, your rhythms need some rework. Your rhymes are good, except for S2L3-4, but even they are near enough. Your theme is excellent. Where I emphasized an apparent coldness of expression (observed by art critics as well), you’ve been sympathetic to the character, and as a result, have added depth that my poem lacked. Yours is not a humorous write. May I suggest for S3L1: “Your power, wealth may seethe gold rings, impress;” (Love the “seethe”) It’s good you looked up the bio, Julie. I had no idea there was that much info on her. Juniper in Italian (ginepro, if I recall) alliterates with “Ginevra”, but perhaps your explanation was Da Vinci’s true intended meaning. And the original title was fine; I wasn't sure if you wanted to have it hammered after the work and feeling you obviously put into it. Alcuin
Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	on June 13 2007 Thank you!!! Firstly, Yes! Your version is much funnier. I didn't really know how to add levity to my point, so I hoped it would still work, since frankly, Ginerva doesn't look like she's much of a party girl anyway. And just a nod to the fact that yes, many critiques of the painting do suggest she was cold. The one thing I like about the poems together is that they tell a whole story. I bet she was really hard to live with. I'm frustrated about the meter issue. I'm almost deaf to it. I hear what you're saying (and what Leanne has written about rhythms previously) but I just don't HEAR it. And I won't be able to fix the shortcomings until I 'get' it. I'm still stuck on counting syllables, which I realise is wrong - it's the stresses. I wonder if there's such thing as a poetry class that deals with pentameters and rhythms, because I might understand it better if I there was someone there tapping it out for me. Lastly, as far as I'm concerned, please always feel free to "hammer" my work. For the most part, everyone knows how to do it tactfully, so it doesn't hurt my feelings, and I'm too green to have any kind of compass of my own. it's really helpful to recieve feedback of what I'm doing well, and where I need to focus for improvement. Thank you again for your time, and your thoughtful comments.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on June 13 2007 I'm just going to go with metric fixes here because I like the poem overall so there's no need to really critique any part of it -- it says good things goodly I would like you to keep the rhythm you have in the first line. For me it scans a little different to ole A of Y and I like it, it's kind of in-your-face. So... You/ SAY your de/ SIRE burns a / LIra for / ME -- aside from that first syllable, which is unstressed and we can safely ignore it (many lines start this way and it's fine) this line is in dactyls, which are triple feet (DA dum dum -- 3 syllables per foot) rather than double like iambs. This speeds the rhythm up and makes it more lively. The last single accented syllable makes this what we call a truncated line, in that it doesn't include the last two (unstressed) syllables of the final foot. That's not uncommon with triple feet like dactyls and anapests (which are reverse dactyls, da da DUM). Homer used it so it's cool for you to do it but/ COOL is the/ SHADE ‘neath this/ JUNiper/ TREE -- I've just stuck in an "is" to stretch out your meter properly. You/ LEAD me from / HOME Tend/ FIRES of your/ OWN -- very tiny fixes here, the change in the meter is nice and again, not uncommon with dactyls, it's almost limerick-ish. But stroke and frame my alabaster beauty. -- this is flat out terrible for meter because to get it to work you'd have to stress that final syllable of "beauty" and I'm sure you agree that just isn't right. I am not sure what to do here but in all honesty, nothing about this line works. Plus, "alabaster beauty" has been done to death. a/ PITy you/ WON'T divine /DEPTHS that I / HIDE -- this is not an ideal fix either but just for meter's sake it works this way pray these embers in my heart do subside -- another line that just doesn't work. The inversion of syntax "do subside" is very awkward and it just yells that you've forced it in to fit the rhyme. It is also not clear who's doing the praying, whether it's a plea to self or a directive to another. My/ INtellect/ KEEN, a / SONnet, a / DREAM He / FANS flames of / PASsion at / Evening /TIDE -- only metric fixes here. Symmetry is very important. Power and wealth may seethe gold rings to impress -- are you sure you want "seethe" in there? It's not logical for me and although I get the gist of the line I'm not sure precisely what you mean. but/ UNder these/ BANDS poli/ TICS sparks du/ RESS. Take/ CARE you don't / BURN for/ (SOMEthing I) YEARN; -- I don't know what to put in there but leaving it as is would not be great. The / SOUL of a / WOMan may /NOT be po/ SSESSED I do hope that helps a little. Meter is NOT easy until you have that CLICK-aha! moment, and then it falls into place and you wonder how you ever struggled with it. It will happen.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on June 13 2007 Incidentally, don't panic if you don't get any comments. I've still got stuff in my library that's not even got hits, let alone comments -- it's nothing personal, you might have just posted on a bad day when everyone has tummy problems. (Or maybe it IS personal and nobody's told me...)
Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	inspired from Leanne on June 13 2007 Leanne - Thanks so much for taking all that time to work on the meter. I have to say I've read through your post 4 times now, and while I wholly appreciate your efforts to explain this to me in very simple terms, I'm still stuck. For example, I'm still trying to understand why it works to cut out syllables . . . do I just forget the concept of syllables altogether here, and focus on the stresses of the words? I'm going to need to print off my version, your version, and Alcuin's and really just try to absorb it all before I try to fix it. I'm afraid I bit off more than I could chew. As for panicing . . . well, I prefer being 'assertive' Normally, I wouldn't push it, but this was a riskier piece and I really wanted the feedback, which, as you can see, it desperately required. Thanks again for taking the time to work with me on this!
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on June 13 2007 OK, stresses and syllables and meter. Meter is measure. It's a measure of stresses in a poetic line and it's broken up into "feet". The number of syllables per foot are what determines the feel or pace of the poem. So, if you've got a "triple foot" like a dactyl, your poem moves along faster. Double feet like iambs are more ponderous or soothing (they're the heartbeat rhythm). I will email you some more info, it might help you. You do have to pay attention to syllables. But just not first -- hear the stresses first and then play with the syllables to get it right.
Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	inspired from Leanne on June 13 2007 Yes, please, I'll take you up on that email. Are feet the words inbetween the slashes? I have a feeling I'll like double feet, if I can ever sort out what it all is.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on June 13 2007 Yes, wherever there's a slash it indicates a new foot. As you can see, they don't have to be all the same length on every line. It's all about symmetry in this case.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on June 13 2007 ;) I have about 2100 without comments -- most of then without reads too. Don't fret too much. A few things will help that as we go forward -- more traffic, better navigation, and new ways of viewing things. BUT, that's a bit in the future. FOr now, feel free to point people, unpublish and republish to get back into the recent list and that sort of thing. ----- stephan
Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	on June 13 2007 I've tried to rework this, and even I know it's not there yet. I'm not sure if I'm swinging the meter right, or just forcing it to fit in my own reading. I'm not sure if S2 L2 reads quite right. And I'm unhappy with how the last line just feels tagged on there without even a one word syllable to tie it to the previous line . . . any thoughts? And a question about aesthetics . . . I'm finding that some of the flow is lost when putting the words to meter. For example, I think that if I forget about meter, it sounds better in the last line to say "A woman's soul can never be possessed." And the way it is now sounds forced. Is that because that's what meter kind of does, or does the awkward flow just mean I'm lacking skill . . . never mind. I think I know the answer to that.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on June 13 2007 Let me sit on it for a couple of days, if you don't mind, and I'll see about recording it so you can HEAR the difference. That's much easier than trying to explain it like this.
Julie herselffrom Here and There 302 posts	on June 13 2007 Girl got soul, but ain't got no rhythm . . . Well, I don't know. I do have rhythm. Why can't I get this?!? Thanks so much for offering to record the sounds when you get a chance. I think I may be more of an auditory learner so that could help, but it seems so generous of you.
Amanda Bakerfrom Kentucky 287 posts	on June 14 2007 Don't feel bad about struggling with meter. I am feeling much better knowing there is someone else out there in poetry land that just can't get it. I was starting to think it was just me. I suppose the unmetric love company. Other than the problems with the meter that I didn't even notice, I really enjoyed this. The first stanza is just lovely. ----- ...but what do I know?