Pondering Minutia and Criticism

This has been on my mind a lot today. I'm curious the thoughts of the members on this rather ridiculous finer point.

It seems to me that helpful criticism requires a bit of knowledge that sometimes is hard to decipher upon reading one work of a writer, and that is their reason for writing it.

As an example, Jen writes children's verse and comedic verse, and she's quite good at it. But if you were to criticise her material as aimed for an adult market you'd have to change the criteria.

Understanding what Jen is doing changes how I think of her work. It is vital to know her audience to make any sort of rational comment on her pieces.

She isn't the only one this is true of. IN fact, I'd say it's true of every piece I read and criticise here. I was really impressed with Keats the other day, the first thing he asked was, "Why do you write poetry?"

That is a fantastic first question. Obviously it doesn't answer everything, but it gives him an idea, when he's reading different works, what that person might be trying to do based on their comments.

The thought in my head is this - those people who post a poem or two without context here, without commenting on others, talking on the discussion boards, and possibly adding some notes in their journal or on their profile, those people will find it difficult to get any relevant feedback on their work. How can I determine whether the piece works or not, if I don't know what the piece is trying to do?

Suppose they are trying to write a sonnet, but they get the form completely wrong, and it's not labelled as a sonnet. I won't necessarily offer advice on how to fix the form, i may not recognize it as such. If the poem is making a political statement and i can't see it, or I have no idea that that particular poet does that a lot -- my commentary might only touch on the artistry or form and never delve at all into the greater question of whether the work actually successfully makes a political point.

So, what say you all, would you say that Shakespeare's Monkeys is making any headway at all into clarifying the goals of the works posted here such that the commenters are able to give valid and useful comments?

If not, or even if so, how can we work to improve that?

Certainly Alcuin, Derma and Leanne do a remarkable job of discerning such things from the works here, but i'm wondering how we can help all of us to be so good at it?

Fondly,

stephan

Comments

1- Leanne on June 8 2007

I don't want to discourage people from just posting and nothing else... I'm sure they have reasons... I don't understand them, of course. Any contribution is fine. HOWEVER, you're wasting a massive opportunity to be part of something quite remarkable. Commenting on other people's work invariably leads to an improvement in your own (unless you're only choosing to comment on poems you consider "easy" and not really putting any effort into it). Taking part in discussions, whether they're about writing or just life in general, will spark inspiration, often from the strangest things. One cannot write poetry in a vacuum. (Emily Dickinson was a freak, and if you look closely you'll see that she wrote the same poems over and over again, just changing a few words -- but even the Divine Miss Dick read books, ergo no vacuum). If you only read your own poems, you'll only learn what you already know and that's rather pointless. Not to mention minimal.

2- White_Feather on June 9 2007

I think some of what you're talking about is community, and that's what this forum really is.

I'm learning that commenting on another person's work is an art fom in and of itself. It's hard and intimidating, and, as a people-pleaser, it's even psychologically hard at some levels. Who the hell am I trying to be offering anyone else advice? Still, for some absurd reason, I've been blessed with the ability to jump in with both feet regardless of whether or not I make an ass out of myself. I think that for a lot of people, that's a really hard thing to do -- you know, look like an ass, willingly. I think it would be alot easier to participate in these ways if I were more experienced, or had been part of a literary community before. Anyway, I venture to guess I'm not the only one who feels this way.

But Leanne hit the nail on the head. At least in participating, and making attempts to be thoughtfully critical, I'm learning alot.

3- Alcuin of York on June 9 2007

Excellent point, Stephan. I tend to judge works by my style, and I believe that's a natural bent of most people. I have to consciously work to avoid this. If someone says they're trying to copy a certain accent or attitude of common people, we can't fault them for incorrect spelling or grammar. On the other hand, if the writer's purpose is something like, "Just something that popped into my head, so I jotted it down", then I think criticism for leaving brain-fartings uneditted is called for. Otherwise, this site will degenerate as have others. In summary. I think we should encourage people to tell us the purpose or effects they want the writing to serve. Perhaps a field just above "Comments" would serve this goal. It might also inform the writer that we expect that they have a purpose or goal.

WF: You're right, you're not an expert poet, but commenting is important because it helps the writer to see his poetry from the POV of a less informed reader, and helps the commenter go more deeply into the better writer's work. In short, both sides of the process are improved. Sounds like a pretty good win-win deal to me. An extra bonus - unless the writer is a snob, it will start conversations between writers and critiquers, even if the former gets pissed at the latter. Conversation is good.

Leanne: You're right, I tried writing poetry in a vacuum, but I couldn't fit.
One more thing. It's not Miss Dick; it's dick miss. Trust me, I know.

Alcuin

4- Leanne on June 9 2007

I need to say one thing, just once and then I'll get over it for another five minutes or so...

There is no such thing as an expert poet.

If you write poetry and choose to stop learning, exploring, pushing boundaries, experimenting and just playing with the language, frankly you cease to become a poet. Nobody ever really perfects anything in poetry. Nobody should. You can get good at something, proficient, knowledgeable -- but never expert.

And frankly, that's the way it should be. It's the journey that's important, not the destination.

5- Anstey on June 9 2007

Unless your'e going to Chad.
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stephan

6- The debutante on June 20 2007

" Unless your'e going to Chad. "

or alabama... but i have my reasons.... and they all involve grits.

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mL,
the debutante