Temper,Temper - Shakespeare's Monkeys

Anstey -
Laurie's version was radically different, and perhaps better, I'm not sure. However, I offer my version up, and perhaps someone else would like to fuse the two.

Cries of souls against bitter winds

A selfish thought makes things worse

Stomach turns on syrupy words

Thirst makes it taste so much better

Blind and deaf coldly connect

WIthin the space time continuum

Let them go, you are done here.

My initial take on Laurie's post was that it lacked a bit of color, and seemed a bit too much in the 'tell' vein rather than the 'show'. The two lines that i didn't like, I just removed. Lines 2 and 7. To add form I changed this into 4 couplets and tried to consolidate her images into one thematic one. As is usually the case with me, that leads back to either monkeys or tea, so -- tea it was.

For some reason, I wanted to add some alliteration to the first line so I substituted the banshee for the soul, an softened the 'cries' to 'breath'. I then added the 'souls' back to fill out the line, and broke them.

It seemed to me that wind should be singular, not plural and i wanted to expand the feeling of anguish darkness, which I did by making the wind tongueless, which seemed to me a bit of a horror picture image.

Next I focused on tying in the tea, with the spoon, the thick syrup, the steeped, the honey, the steam and the mug.

ALl the while, I was trying to work on the metaphor for rage. I don't think it is at all finished.

stephan

Alcuin of York -
Uhhh, look, I'm new here. What you (Stephan) are saying is that you modified someone else's write? Why? Also, why is this permitted? It seems to me that a writer's work is his work, and should be changed by no one but him/her. Alcuin

Anstey -
I am SOO glad you asked and didn't storm off or freak out!

THANK YOU!

The short answer is: this is the group poetry area. This is collaborative writing. Anything in these folders can be edited, duplicated and rewritten, whatever you'd like. That's the point of the area -- it's a site poetry-free-for-all.

I will try to make that more clear.

Thanks again!

stephan

Laurie -

Wasn't there anything salvagable in that piece? I mean it isn't even really the same poem ... I think only a few words are the same. Are we just supposed to be getting an "idea" from a posted poem? Or are we supposed to add to or rearrange what is there?I guess I figured collaboration would keep more of the original...

Anstey -
I think this is an example of why i'm AWFUL to collaborate with.

In this case, i clearly went too far with it. I think, it helps have a note on a piece -- to share what the goal is, what the meaning is, etc. I tried to keep the same general idea, and elaborate on the same examples you had. Since I missed it, we can trash it, and go back to the original, and see what we can do.

stephan

Kath -

I am glad this question came up. I do wonder WHY are we doing this?

I don't think Stephan, you are really attracted to collaboration. Why is there this focus? What does it accomplish? I don't mean this critically...just a question.

In one way I think it is interesting in that it is a poetic meeting of minds. In fact better than most conversations, as it occurs on a poetic almost "inner head" level, and it brings up interesting questions. I don't know that it can really result in art. I am not sure. It is playful. I am not sure if one wants to devote one's creative energies really, though. Although I just went ahead and did it, and it did not feel painful... it was interesting, as I said.

I have done collaborations before, but in a more personal way, with another poet, on agreement. This is different. More of a free-for-all...

Kath -

I like Laurie's original very much.

It is true Stephan's seems like a different poem.

Not a bad back and forth, though. Almost like a conversation.

I can imagine Laurie's as verse one,

then Stephan's quite different in tone, as verse two.

Then going back to Laurie, answering in the same tone as the first verse.

Anstey -
... because a lot of people want to collaborate, whether I enjoy doing it or not. That is why the feature will be here.

As far as a 'different poem' -- yes it is.

My advice is very simple: If you want to collaborate with someone, enjoy using this tool, it might help a lot. If you don't want to collaborate with anyone, please don't use this tool. Your personal area will certainly be respected -- no one will touch any of your stuff there.

stephan

Derma Kaput -
I was somewhat taken aback by this dialogue - until I looked where the poem was posted, in Collaboration Central. Now it all makes sense. I did think Anstey's version had gone pretty far astream, but maybe mine has as well. Either way, I enjoyed this exercise. Thank you, Laurie, for letting us play with your words and vision.

---

Soul breath, misting
On a tongueless lick of spoon

A belly aching, grumbling
With the sweetened monologue of need

O this thirst, this taste of hell and rage
Acerbic as a bitter pill, sweet as honey

Steeped in a lemon pout, this clink
Of porcelain, my swallowed steam

Of here and when, then and there, never
Drunk, these ticks and tocks

That swim in curses, this ghost of who
I am, a banshee, wailing for tea

Derma Kaput -
Having sat and edited mine for awhile, I have an insight as to where Stephen's went astray. Laurie's poem was built around the metaphor of tea and apparently the impatience of waiting for it. Stephen lost the tea metaphor completely, which in my mind loses the heart of the poem, and the humor that Laurie (maybe) built into it. Where Laurie's poem lost steam, I think, is that it was so buried in adjectives that the metaphor wasn't nearly as apparent as it should be.

What I enjoyed most about trying my own version of someone else's poem (collaborative or not) is that it gave me insight (I think) into what another poet was trying to achieve. Unless I'm entirely mistaken. In which case, ignore me.

Derma Kaput -
On the other hand, I may have wandered too far into the metaphor and lost the anger of the original. I don't really know anymore. Time to move on. Thanks Laurie.

Anstey -
I focussed on the title, I think, the idea of a tempest there. I definitely move dcompletely away from the original intent. (Which, I couldn't quite grasp, through no fault of Laurie's) In the absence of knowing, I made up my own. I'm a cad like that.

stephan

Derma Kaput -
Ahhhhh, a tempest in a tea cup!

Kath -

I have done lots of "collaborating" with other poets on poems. In my case it has been with one other poet at a time. (Except in the case of "renga" , I have done it both ways. I have done renga series with another poet, which meant one poet sets out, starts with their haiku, then the other poet follows with another. I have also participated with a group, anyone following the first, and then anyone continuing. So it was a string of poets, and a string of renga. Each poet's contribution was left intact.

Then I've worked by alternating stanzas, or agreed sets of lines, ar just following the other's poetic lines with ones of my own, connecting.

Somnetimes we might question or suggest. But not outright edit. So there are all kinds of collaboration. The idea of outright editing another's verse is another, and the one that seems to be happening here.

In Laurie's case it was startling, and not what she expected. It's a kind of odd collaborating I think. It does not seem like collaboration. It seems like editing, and critiquing,Collaboration is more collaborative in my mind. Or at least has some more clear agreement at the beginning.

The idea that all three of these verses could follow one another as a set is still to me very interesting, I must say, I am still most attracted to the mystery and wordiness of the original! But I like the other two as echoes of it. Not as negations or corrections or improvements.

Derma Kaput -
Frankly, I have no idea what the intent of this section is about - just thought I'd follow the lead of the guy who created the site. As far as this poem goes, Laurie's looked to be complete. I can't imagine appending a further stanza on something that wraps up so well. Also, I do occasionally take other people's poems and re-write them, just as an exercise, providing there's something in them I really relate to and enjoy. But only as an exercise. I don't normally show anyone the results, and never think of them as my own work. But as far as collaborating goes, I think a collaboration of re-writes passed back and forth until all parties are satisfied is just as valid as alternating stanzas, lines or haiku. I've never really done it, but it might be interesting. Still, who ever offers up the first draft would have to be pretty fluid with the whole process, and I can imagine a whole bunch of testy poets fuming by the end.

Laurie -

My original was something I had been working on for awhile... I rarely put a poem out that I do not feel is complete unless I am specifically looking for some help. I usually start by just writing down what I want and then rearranging the pieces and words like a puzzle. Sometimes I take out all the adverbs or adjectives... or change a certain word. And now I know all writers may not agree with me but what usually happens is I re-read it and suddenly it is just a really good poem. I usually don't think about whether I feel something or not during the writing process,although something usually sets me off on a particular topic... I want the reader to feel it when the poem is done. In this case I know I had been mad about something,but I had held onto this so long I actually forgot what it was. Anyway this was a good piece for collaboration central!

Kath -

Maybe the "collaboration" process helped you see how succesful your poem really is. One good thing is that we are talking about poetry... but none of this seems really "collaborative" to me.

For me a collaboration is a work by two or more poets creating an art work and considering how their particular creative gifts would best merge and produce a kind of beauty different from what each would produce individually. It is not easy and it is different for each set of poets as to how it might work best I think. The reason for doing it in my experience is similar to lovemaking.

Leanne -
col·lab·o·rate

[kuh-lab-uh-reyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used without object), -rat·ed, -rat·ing.

1.	to work, one with another; cooperate, as on a literary work: They collaborated on a novel.

As far as I can see, this is exactly what's been done. Laurie's initial words and ideas have been manipulated by others to create something more.

If a work is sacred to the writer and mustn't be touched, it would never appear in a collaborative area. Laurie put her poem here to be turned into something else and I admire her greatly for it. Perhaps it's also shown her what direction her words might be able to move in -- or perhaps it's shown her that she's happy with the way it's going right now. Her response is invited -- in fact, required. Back and forth in cooperation. It's a learning process for all concerned and should not be undermined in any way.

Leanne -
For the record, anyone may take any of my poems and rewrite them to their heart's content if that is their wont.

Derma Kaput -
Well, all I can say is that this has been a great conversation. what I'd really like to know, from Laurie, is just what her intent was in posting this poem in the collaboration area?

Anstey -
Having talked directly to Laurie about this, and knowing she's off and about today, I can toss in, until she gets back and puts it in her own words.. that she did indeed put this out there to be played with and collaborated with by others. She was doing this directly as asked for by me on the forum. She is an amazingly supportive friend of mine and does insanely nice kind stuff like this all the time.

stephan

Laurie -

Now I am blushing!! Actually it was a poem I had been working on for awhile that never did seem quite right...so when Stephan asked me to post a poem for collaboration I decided this one would be perfect as I felt is needed something... to make it a much better piece and look at the conversation we have had! I feel I am learning so much.

Anstey -
The banshees breath of breaking souls
against tongueless licks of bitter wind

The spooned sweet acerbic stomach turns
on long thick monologues of syruped words

O This thirst, this taste of steeped hell and rage
neatly swallowed like honey swaddled pill

Vision becomes steam and sound a mug
between here and when and there and then

Un-drank these ticks and tocks swim in curses
while the ghost of what I was wails for tea

stephan

Julie -

" "I don't think Stephan, you are really attracted to collaboration..." - Kath "

As someone who's collaborated with Stephan in the past, I just needed to comment on this comment. Collaborating with Stephan is great -- if you can honestly, truly, be open to creating work that is neither yours nor his. Done right, working with this monkey WILL NOT result in a "duet" piece (which can be wonderful in their own right), where distinctly separate voices play together. Instead, I liken it to doing a painting on top of a painting, where even if the first images are painted over entirely, their essence(s) still works as underpaintings to flavor the final work.

It's SO not for everyone, but I'd recommend it to anyone who's not afraid of stepping on toes or having their own stepped on.

Kath -

I certainly can understand that description of a collaboration such as that and blend blissfully.

Just out of curiousity, does Stephan sign such works as a collaborator? I've never seen one in the past.

I've enjoyed collaborations with poets where the voices are distinguished and also without distinquishing voices, and love both. We've always signed as joint authors. I consider that an honor and a merging into the deep pool of language and meaning together, Can be serious or quite playful. Quite an amazing experience.

Rene -

I just now had time to find this thread! So, here is my contribution to the melee of words...

Souls breath, misting
On a reflected lick of spoon

A belly aching, grumbling
With the sweetened monologue of need

O this thirsting of hell and rage, tasting
Acerbic as a bitter pill, sweet as honey

Steeping lemon pout, clinking
Of porcelain, my swallowed steam

Of here and when, then and there, never
Drunk, these ticks and tocks

That swam in curses, this ghost of who
I am, a banshee, wailing for tea

I changed a few verb tenses to keep with the 'ing' that started it all. I found the 'ing' in the last line of the last couplet to be a great way to end it since it started with it!

I hope to add something to collaborate on in here very soon and will be willing to watch the fun grow....

I am orbiting, I don't know where, but I am orbiting something!

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