A Question about Poets and Poetry.

Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Mar. 4 2008 No, I think he's an untrained monkey.
Paradiso, Tracey Associate, 1902 posts	on Mar. 4 2008 This actually plays into something I just heard Eckhart Tolle, author of "A New Earth: Awakening to Your LIfe's Purpose," say in an interview when he was asked HOW he writes his books. His response was something like (paraphrased, and italics are mine): "It's not a decision-making process. It comes from consciousness. When you are in touch with stillness, sometimes an impulse/feeling/sense that something wants to be born into the world emerges. "Every morning I set space aside for writing until 2 p.m. Some days I wrote a few lines, sometimes a lot. I always honored the space. My thinking had to be reliant on something deeper. "The answers to who you are and what life wants from you are in the repetitive moments of stillness. Invite those moments into your life, that's where the answers are." In that context, your carpenter seems to be thinking only, and thinking only on the surface. He make take personal pleasure in his bird house, but his carepentry will probably not impact the world in any real way. So is he really a carpenter? More of a dreamer, an amateur, a person with a fun hobby I think and not so much a craftsman. Certainly not an "artist." I'll continue to ponder this.
Paradiso, Tracey Associate, 1902 posts	on Mar. 4 2008 I had planned to post this quote on the site today and this seems to be the perfect place: *"If I read a book and it makes my whole body so cold no fire ever can warm me I know that* is poetry. If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know that is poetry." ~Emily Dickinson** Does the ramshackle bird house evoke even half the response in anyone aside from the man who built it and his overly doting aging mother?
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from Tracey on Mar. 4 2008 As someone who spent time in a workshop as a boy, and learned how to use most of the tools, I would never consider myself a carpenter. Simply being able to build something doesn't really imbue one with the title. I think, it goes beyond that. To me, a carpenter must have a certain level of professionalism, care for his craft, in addition to the ability to create. Honestly, I dont' have this figured out, but I do know that to say something, or even believe something, does not make it so.
Rene Jonesfrom somewhere in the orbit of my own sphere 558 posts	on Mar. 4 2008 Well Stephen, I really have to agree with you on this. Just because you say something or desire something does not make it so. If that were the way of it, we would all be rich OR at least we would never have to worry about paying our bills on time or any other such everyday worries. We can even desire something and pursue it with a vengeance and never acheive its culmination. BUT, we can try. And in trying we MAY acheive some sort of fulfillment in the process. Occassionally, we may even succeed at that which we desired, attempted, and actively went after. At what point in life do we consider that we are 'accomplished' in any endeavor that we pursue? I believe that is where the true question lies. ----- LIFE: I messed up, can I have a 'do over'? I am orbiting, I don't know where, but I am orbiting something!
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Mar. 5 2008 Yes, of course he's a carpenter. And anything is poetry if you say it is. And anything is art if someone likes it. It's not amateur and messy, it's "naturally talented" and "avant garde".
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	on Mar. 5 2008 I for one would say that based on the most basic determination of a carpenter (one who works with wood), I'd have to say he's a carpenter. If he somehow had made a decent bird house, it would not change this basic description. Likewise, someone like me, who never really bothers to study or "think" about what I'm writing, I'm still a writer. Just because I "stream" 5 poems a day does not make me any less of a writer than one who sweats over an haiku for a week. The point is, is he a good? carpenter (poet)? Depends on your view really I guess. Is the intuitive, untrained person any less able to achieve something? Mos.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Mar. 5 2008 Yes. Much less likely. It could still happen, of course. Just like a Shetland pony could theoretically win the Melbourne Cup. Put your money on the Thoroughbreds.
Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Mar. 5 2008 The difference between this scenario and poetry is that in poetry you can't stumble across a workshop full of all the necessary tools. Each tool in a poet's toolkit is developed through experience. By the time a well-equipped workshop appears, the poet has the skill to use the tools. What it comes down to then is what the poet produces. People have a wild array of ideas about what a birdhouse is supposed to look like. Your "carpenter", of course, is an idiot. But the poet in a similar position really doesn't exist. The analogy is to the poet who thinks he/she has all the tools when in reality its all a charade - creativity in a sloppy fashion. Sometimes those poets develop into the real deal though, if they realise that there's a lot of work to be done and are up to the challenge.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from Derma Kaput on Mar. 5 2008 Derma Kaput: I disagree slightly here. The tools exist whether the poet knows how to use them, or what they're called. In this case, Metaphor, Simile, personification, assonance, consonance, alliteration, rhyme, meter and the list goes on are the tools. They exist, much like the literal tools of a carpenter, whether someone knows how to use them or not. I suppose if the analogy breaks down it is not with the tools, but the workshop. One might argue that the workshop of a poet is their brain. In that case, at least as much as is necessary to read and write, people attempting to write poetry might have an empty space or not. However, I wasn't thinking of the mind as the workshop, in this case, I was thinking more of a physical space. Though, in the end it is a metaphor and not the thing itself. So, my thinking was very straight forward, all the tools exist, the space to use them exists, and until a person practices and learns the tools and understands how they work, i don't think they're really a poet. I totally agree however, "... the poet who thinks he/she has all the tools when in reality its all a charade - creativity in a sloppy fashion. Sometimes those poets develop into the real deal though, if they realise that there's a lot of work to be done and are up to the challenge." Though I think that seldom happens. People are lazy.
Dotdotdotfrom mars 466 posts	on Mar. 6 2008 What's with the influx of pretentious discussion topics lately? Is this a poet thing?? To answer your analogy: Yes, I think he's a carpenter. Just a shitty one.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Mar. 6 2008 Yay for Shannon! He's a shitty carpenter who can call himself a carpenter all he likes -- would he be welcome at a master craftsman's convention on the latest dovetaily thingos? Unlikely. It would be very unwise of him to walk into a room full of men with hammers and start going on about his brilliance. As long as he doesn't inflict his carpentry on the world, and as long as he doesn't try convincing anyone he's a master, let him build his shitty little birdhouses to his heart's content.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from Leanne on Mar. 6 2008 Why is it pretentious? People tell me all the time that they hate this or that, and I am curious if they think through what they're hating and why. It seems to me that it's responsible to think through what one is doing, how one is doing it, and why. Of course anyone can call themselves whatever they choose. I do not believe that makes it so. And I would agree whole heartedly, let him make shitty little birdhouses to his hearts content. That isn't really the question. I think the prorogation of topics like this is on me. I like to think about these things and I like others to as well. Even if what they think is "what a bunch of pompous pretentious bullshit." The exercise is, in my opinion, helpful.
Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Mar. 6 2008 I love 'pretentious' topics - they give me something to think about, and the opportunity to try and put the thoughts into words. What are we supposed to talk about, the weather? This is a poetry site isn't it?
Dotdotdotfrom mars 466 posts	on Mar. 6 2008 Hey hey, don't get defensive. How is this specific discussion pretentious? Well, because you used a metaphor to ask the question "what makes a poet a poet?" rather than just asking the question directly.. a little pretentious, right? And personally I think most discussions of art and poetry are inherently pretentious, because art/poetry IS often composed almost entirely of pretention. I'm not assigning a value judgement to this assesment- I'm just saying that I percieve it like this. I usually quite enjoy these discussions myself, I'm not saying they're useless or undesirable. And of course this is what we should talk about. We just wouldn't be awesome if we didn't. [I'm mildly sorry if I sound like a douche about this- but I'm feeling pissy and blunt.] And why does everyone take such offense at the P word? I don't mean on this site, but in general. People haaate it. It's such an overused word anyway.... it barely means anything anymore. PS- Blaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----- You couldn't possibly butter my toast - Mindless Self Indulgence
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	on Mar. 6 2008 Of course, the worst is that those alleging pretensiousness are oft guilty of making a specious allegation when they claim this.....kinda ironic isn't it? Back to the topic however, I for one always find these questions interesting. As Derma alluded, they get one thinking; a difficult task for some but one well worth the effort. You never know, your precepts may well be challenged, even changed. Mos.
Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Mar. 6 2008 I think the pretentious remark was just an off the cuff smart-ass comment, i.e. humor. No big deal. so now, suppose this workshop is an ideal, well-equipped operatating room, with all the latest scalpels and everything. Even the machine that goes bing. You're laying on the table when this guy comes in wearing a nice crisp new surgical gown and he can't wait to pick up his tools and get to work on your liver, or pancreas, or something equally vital. Of course, he's never done this before, but he has lots of enthusiasm and is willing to try anything. Now, when he's finished cutting you up to his heart's content, is he a surgeon, a shitty surgeon, or just a run of the mill gruesome murderer?
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from Derma Kaput on Mar. 6 2008 I honestly didn't feel real defensive, so much as demanding. I think DK is spot on, it was funny, but, for once, I was trying to be serious -- so i tried to bring it back to that. Anyways. The real breakdown of the analogy, which I haven't really wanted to bring up because it's jut about complete, is that carpenters are paid for their work. Average Joe Accountant working in his basement workshop is generally not considered a carpenter no matter how good he is at it, because carpenter is a job. Joe isn't going to go on the street and say, "I'm a carpenter, he'll say I'm an accountant and my hobby is woodworking" or something like that. I think we can safely say, Poet is not a job. The reason I don't think a straight out question works well in this case is that, particularly on a writing site (no, not we're not really just a a poetry site), is not about pretension but prejudice. We are all passionate about our beliefs, and that makes me really happy and viciously proud to know you folks, but at times it means that discussions end before they even begin. By somewhat divorcing the principle from the practice, the discussion continues and we touch on a slightly deeper understanding. All of us are able to take some of our bias and set it aside as we ponder the detached dispassionate scenario, then try to apply it to what we care about. I admit, it certainly has its flaws, but on the other hand I don't think pretense is one. Particularly as it was clearly labeled so as to bring the metaphor back to real subject at hand. One of the greater subjects that I'm touching on here is really the importance of knowing how to use the tools. The complete lack of interest in knowing them at all frustrates me in dealing with a lot of poets. I don't get frustrated with what people don't know, but I with what they don't' care about. To extend an already ruined metaphor, it isn't the horrible carpenters building crappy birdhouses that are the problem for me, it's horrible carpenters building crappy birdhouses calling them amazing-wonderful-perfect-birdhouses whilst disparaging others building birdhouses and either insulting those who try learn to use the tools properly to build their birdhouses, making excuses why they don't need or want to use the tools, or calling the tools stupid and too difficult to use.
Ryan Wilbur	on Mar. 31 2008 I don't know. I'm sure the audience and critic will decide.
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 31 2008 I can see Shan has some points worth exploring - but don't try any of that kissing shit, cos she''ll throw up over your toolkit. Ok - the topic/question is presented in the form of a metaphor; ideal for a discussion amongst 'poets'. Well, at least the analogy didn't involve quantum physics...perhaps the positive aspect of intellectual debate is that you don't get many gate-crashers - unless, of course, they happen to have brought along a range of demolition machinery to the party:) I'm not yet sure if this is about devil's advocacy, or just a lack of professionalism in my woodworking exploits.
Jennifer Raganfrom Camillus, New York 423 posts	on Mar. 31 2008 I like these kinds of questions that make you think outside the birdhouse. Writing can be a lonely world. Shoddy craftsmanship doesn't just apply to carpenters. I think the ability to give and take constructive criticism is an important tool that a lot of writers misuse.
Dotdotdotfrom mars 466 posts	on Mar. 31 2008 Someone has to speak for Satan- if only to make the conversation a little more fiery (or bound for hell). Devil's advocating always makes you look like a douche but sometimes that's the price you must pay to amuse yourself. (And Laura: I think you're an excellent exploiter of wood. And by wood I mean poetry and by exploiter I mean writer. And by Laura I mean you. Wait.. you get that this is metaphor right? RIIGHT?) Also, reminds me of http://shamash.typepad.com/sha...aise_of_th.html It's hard to pick a favorite but mine may be: She grew on him like she was a colony of E. Coli, and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. (SEXY) Or John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also never met.
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 31 2008 Mine may or may not be: "He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck, either, but a real duck that was actually lame, maybe from stepping on a land mine or something." or "Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever." though that one doesn't go far enough...here in the U of K, it would be finished off by an interrogative, such as 'innit?' Shan - metaphors pass way under my radar - what would I do with a woody?
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	on Mar. 31 2008 <----- Veteran; or is that inveterate, Devils Advocate!!!! Mos.
Dotdotdotfrom mars 466 posts	on Apr. 1 2008 I think some of those metaphors arent even bad. Maybe they're just being incredibly ironic. Or humorous. Like the "like, whatever" one. Or "The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work." That makes me go "heh". Mos., I can tell. FROM YOUR HORRIBLE FACE. What the hell is that thing anyway? It makes me sad and keeps me up at night. And not in a sexy way.
Dotdotdotfrom mars 466 posts	on Apr. 1 2008 Also Laura. Personally, if I can't bring my demolition machinery to the party.. why even show up? Who wants to show up and clean the house when you could just as easily break everything and deny responsibility?? ITS STILL A METAPHOR!! WOW THIS METAPHORING IS EASY!
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Apr. 1 2008 It's my party, and I'll clean it if you'll be my brother-in-law, ruby...SNOT!
Rene Jonesfrom somewhere in the orbit of my own sphere 558 posts	on Apr. 5 2008 So, I followed your link Shan and I am still rolling around on the floor laughing. That was so worth the trip to read and enjoy. I did find some of them to be good! I really needed the smile today too, perfect timing for me to stumble across this.... ----- I am orbiting, I don't know where, but I am orbiting something! I am orbiting, I don't know where, but I am orbiting something!
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	inspired from ShannonV on Apr. 5 2008 " Mos., I can tell. FROM YOUR HORRIBLE FACE. What the hell is that thing anyway? It makes me sad and keeps me up at night. And not in a sexy way. " he he Shannon, 'tis Chatterer from Clive Barker's Hellraiser, isn't he just soooooooo pwetty!!!
Catherine, Cat 452 posts	on Apr. 28 2008 Crap! I can't believe I missed the meat of this discussion. And all because I was hot glue-gunning rhinestones (well colored plastic faceted things) to sweatshirts and writing in fabric paint across the chest, "I'm worth it!". It's part of my boosting fake self-esteem for women but for some reason, I can't seem to give them away. These are DESIGNER sweatshirts, people! 50/50 coly/flammable nylon. Custom designed by an artiste!!! Now what were you guys talking about? Catherine.jpg
Norm milliken 373 posts	on Apr. 29 2008 If his workshop is truly (almost) magical. birds will come to his creation, however imperfect, and raise their young. They will eventually come to regard the man as god. (I love the metaphor you have created. Magic is everywhere, especially in the heart.)
Fallica thomas 46 posts	on May 21 2008 being a person who 'dabbles' in both carpentry and poetry....the running gag when we're building a house or some such big wood thingy, is that it ain't a real job until we see some blood from someone.....can that be applied to writing?
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	inspired from tequila mockingbird on May 21 2008 " being a person who 'dabbles' in both carpentry and poetry....the running gag when we're building a house or some such big wood thingy, is that it ain't a real job until we see some blood from someone.....can that be applied to writing? " If that's true, then I'm set! I've always referred to my words/writing as "blood" or as "bleeding from me". Mos.
U668857 312 posts	on May 21 2008 That's a great analogy for writing poetry. Another one I heard (think it was Michael Longley) compares writing poetry to a high-wire act. You gotta get from start to finish in perfect balance, put a foot wrong and over you go into the abyss. So, in answer to your question - the DIY enthusiast certainly ain't a carpenter/poet...but he's probably made the first tentative steps to becoming one eventually some way down the long line of approximations....BRgds.,Alan.
Fallica thomas 46 posts	on May 22 2008 Real blood....none of that metaphorical stuff
Ksartist1946 2 posts	on May 27 2008 He is no more a carpenter than I a poet. It takes time to learn a craft. Johnny C
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Jul. 23 2008 Ok - I now realize I just couldn't see the wood for the tease. So - this guy's name is Carpenter &&&* [*the punctuation markup formerly known as 'ellipsis']
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on Jul. 24 2008 It's like your'e evil, but you're not. You're an enigma.
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Jul. 26 2008 Is that code for colonic irritation?

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