A serious question: Why is this not a poem?

Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 It's not a trick question, I swear.
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 I can think of a few, as listed below: 1 - it's just too crap to be poetic 2 - it's no more than a statement, no sense of HOW the cow chews, what type of grass or even where in Vermont!!! 3 - And I think this is the most important - where's the hook, something to draw the reader in? Nothing, zip, nada, etc. Just one hack's opinion. Mos.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 Awesome reasons, Mos. Statements aren't poems, unless they're statements about something we weren't necessarily going to think ourselves. Cows eat grass. If they were blue cows in camel costumes, that would be a poem. Probably a bad one, but still...
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from Leanne on Feb. 29 2008 Leanne: I dont' know if just changing a statement would be enough. I suspect it must have a greater meaning beyond the initial statement. a blue cow chews blue grass in not-vermont is still not a poem, i dont' think, unless something is added to give it a context, or to change that from a statement to a metaphor. As an example, if th epoem were titled: "The Politics of Bernie Sanders" -- I think, then it is (perhaps) a bad poem. (Bernie Sanders being a socialist congressman from Vermont)
Jasmine Mann 263 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 Content. Content. Content! That's what makes a good poem. It used to be in poetry that form was what made a good poem. Now with so much contemporary poetry out there, it's content that really matters. A good poem should make you feel. It should make you laugh, or cry or feel anything but nothing. It needs to be applicable to the masses. You might feel a sense of peace watching cows chew grass in Vermont. I might feel bored. Also, this poem leaves too many questions for the imagination. Why were you in Vermont? What was the weather like? How old were you? Why were you watching a cow eating grass? Were you a farmer? It needs more. "Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer." - Arnold
Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 Its just a line, not a poem, and not even a particularly interesting line either. Every thing in it is too familiar - we read it in a single glance but experience nothing. In a haiku type form, its even less than a non-poem, bringing up the whole question about why a haiku is sooooo much more than imagery. As an idea itself, it reminds me too much of American poetry in the 70's and 80's, or even beyond - imagery for imageries sake. What Ron Silliman calls the school of quietude. I look at stuff like that and yawn. Big deal. Yesterday, Robert Bly was named the Poet Laureat of Minnesota, and I always think of his early poetry as being summed up by a single poem I saw in an anthology about power lines stretching along the roadway in wisconsin. One of my all time least favorites. A poem should make us see something in a fresh way, experience it. Not just describe something and then leave it hanging out there so it can bore a reader to tears.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 I don't really disagree with either of you, however... The question is, in my mind, not one of feeling or thought, because bad poetry can fail at those, and yet there is often times no question that it is poetry. This is, in my opinion, clearly NOT poetry. So where is the line? Use of poetic device with intent to communicate a message to an audience?
Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 some would say use of a poetic device (effective or not) is enough in itself. in this case, line breaks and the approximation of haiku form is poetic device. hence, from that perspective, this is a bad poem, not a non-poem. Good poems can also be written without a particular message - strong implications of mood can be enough to classify a piece of writing as poetic. So, why is this not a poem? Victor Shklovsky distinguishes between poetic use of language and prosaic use of language - meaning prosaic relies on efficiency of understanding toward abstract concepts, whereas poetic impedes simple understanding and brings the reader to a fresh perspective of the moment and what's happening within that moment. It wakes the reader up to experience, as opposed to the abstract idea of experience related in an historic fashion. But he also focuses on device. In the case of your cow, the device is only a facade. There's no real poetic use of language, only a masquerade of broken lines and a cow munching on grass.
Derma Kaputfrom Possum Grape, Arkansas Associate, 2156 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 In other word, you're right. there has to be some notion of context.
Josie	on Feb. 29 2008 It's performance art. Maybe. Is a toilet bowl that's exhibited in a museum a piece of art? Because it's been disassociated from its function, does it become a statement on how we live our lives? I don't think this is a poem because there's no resonance, no metaphor, the cow has not transcended its "cowness". It has to be a non-cow by the end of the poem.
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 I'd like to see a title before deciding...perhaps 'A Cow Chews Grass In Vermont'?
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 if i were mean I'd say, "Regarding Poets Leanne Hates" as a title.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Feb. 29 2008 That title would demand a MUCH longer poem. Although this is clearly not a poem, for all the reasons discussed and many more, it is entirely possible for a single word to be a poem, given the right title and a good deal of white space as context.
W, Emeya 132 posts	on Mar. 1 2008 It doesn't achieve anything. A poem is usually written to either describe something, to ignite thought or emotion, express something or document an observation. Though that said, the very fact that you pose the question of this being a poem makes it a poem in my book. Though any poem about a cow eating grass in Vermont doesn't seem very successful. ~Emeya
Walker, Kathleen 156 posts	on Mar. 1 2008 All good comments.....ok, please analyze this one......starting with the title of "The Meaning of a Single Thought"......then, everything that follows is all a part of the poem......or is it a poem?.....why or why not? "The Meaning of a Single Thought" (never mind)
Kath Abela Wilsonfrom after the dance 290 posts	on Mar. 1 2008 I think it would take quite a poet to turn Stephan's original entry into a poem. I would not discount it completely as it is so banal and straightforward, that a brilliant title, or especially, a brilliant set of lines following, could turn it updside down backwards into something exciting, It does not interest me enough to try, which is a bad sign. Maybe if I was in a different mood? It could be the beginning of a poem, not a whole poem. It is so straightforward and boring that if it began a poem it is (almost) interesting. Oh well, I am generally positive, and I have no sacred cows. I actually am beginning to think of how to continue this, and once it continued, it could indeed be part of a poem. Please stop me, I don't want to write it.
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 1 2008 Kat - given that a single thought has no meaning in isolation, and infinite meanings given an infinite number of contexts, the white space could represent nothing at all, or anything between this pointlessness in time and space, and the unknown stretching far beyond the phaneron [don't ask], sublimely wrapped in your parenthesised denouement. For these reasons, it represents not merely a poem, but the ultimate in post-modern art. Didn't 'Fall Out Boy' release a CD with that same title?
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from aphasic on Mar. 1 2008 See, that is the question to me. Where does the stripped down and bare become poetry? What elements MUST be present and what, can be stripped away. It is funny to me to think that a haiku is NOT the most stripped down. It is possible to take away more and be left with still-a-poem. I don't know why this has been on my mind lately. I suppose it is some sort of poetic existential probing due to the conference. I was sorely disappointed by it on so my levels. I think that always makes me question things more deeply
Sinnaminsun	on Mar. 1 2008 Poetry can be very subjective, just as art. If you think it's poetry, then so be it.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from sinnaminsun on Mar. 1 2008 Sinnaminsun: I don't think art or poetry is quite THAT subjective though.
Sinnaminsun	inspired from sinnaminsun on Mar. 1 2008 Anstey: You have a point, and that's where "quality" comes into play... which then circles back to subjectivity.
Walker, Kathleen 156 posts	inspired from aphasic on Mar. 1 2008 Aphasic: you have woven together so eloquently the possible meaning of "potential" or "existence" or "potential existence" or even "interrupted existence" and so on, and so on.......the point is, imho, that it's impossible to absolutely define poetry.......it's like trying to define the imagination or the soul.......and though one may determine a given definition for poetry, that doesn't mean poetry only exists within those parameters.......that said, "bad" poetry or even "not" poetry does obviously exist......but like pornography, its definition may be limited to "I know it when I see it"......btw, I'm not sure about the Fall Out Boys, but Nirvana had one damn fine release of "Nevermind".....smells like teen spirit?
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 But tastes like lithium...
Mercieca, Andrew 2771 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 Now this would make it a poem a cow chews grass in vermont A greeny intent on conserving the environment shoots the cow yes, I am sad...... Mos
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 Still the question isn't how to use that to make a poem. Pretty much any words can be added to to create a poem. The question is at what point do words go from being words and become a poem. Laura through use of post-modern reductionism and a strong title created a poem from one word, space and punctuation. Kat's assertion that poetry is indefinable concerns me a bit. I think to some degree she might be right. Leanne spoke of this with a piece she posted a while ago that was 'ruined' in the explanation. Is poetry, much as Leanne's poem, ruined when it is defined?
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 ...the world mourns the loss of a greeny? Or is that just me being obtuse :>
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 It would be much more poetic if the cow shot the greenie.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	inspired from aphasic on Mar. 2 2008 i'm sure you weren't inentionally obtuse!
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 There really does have to be an element of the untranslatable about a poem -- even the simplest rhyming verse should leave a little bit to the imagination. The trick with a limerick, for example, is to hint at a scene rather than make it explicit. The same really goes for any art. Would Mona Lisa be so famous for her smile if you could see that Da Vinci had his pants off while he was painting?
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 I read somewhere [probably here] it was the pants he was wearing that elicited the infamous smile...
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 I agree on the limerick issue - for instance, when alluding to the passing of wind, I feel specific references to the word 'fart' should be avoided at all costs simpering smile
Walker, Kathleen 156 posts	on Mar. 2 2008 when writing a limerick as art one should never refer to a "fart" 'cause the poem instead will be giving you[r] head one hard bitten word, a la cart ok, ok, I admit, "a la cart" is a stretch, but in a poetic kinda way
Josie	on Mar. 7 2008 So if a poem must contain something of the untranslatable, then the poem occurs in the mind of the reader, not in the poem itself. There are certainly poems that I've read at one point in my life and thought nothing much of them; years later they seem like masterpieces. Shouldn't a poem adhere to at least one or two of the standard rules of poetry? Something like one word with a lot of white space would be called something other than a poem. Maybe the word "poetry" has become the catchall for anything that makes us feel.
Stephan Ansteyfrom Lowell, MA Associate, 6232 posts	on Mar. 7 2008 That points to a devaluing of the language itself as much as anything. Really, the question that poetry exists seems inarguable, and it only falls apart in the deconstruction. As far as the white space & word poem, that wasn't the whole poem, the title was as integral as the whitespace or the text. I think that's an important consideration.
Leanne Hansonfrom Just west of the lounge room Associate, 3708 posts	inspired from Josie on Mar. 7 2008 " So if a poem must contain something of the untranslatable, then the poem occurs in the mind of the reader, not in the poem itself. " Yes, it absolutely does! Or rather, not the poem but the poetry. And a good poet is able to take the poetry from his own head and channel it into others, through his poem. I know that sounds way too esoteric and wanky but it makes sense in my head (hence the reason I'm not a good poet). This discussion reminds me of The Symposium, with a bunch of drunk and semi-nude Greek men sitting around trying to define love. Everyone has their idea on what love does, but can't quite get down to what it is -- that is, until smarty pants Socrates comes along and quite simply states "Love is lack" (ok, he used more words than that). We love that which we lack in ourselves -- and poetry to me is much the same. Poetry gives me something I didn't have before -- a new knowledge or a new way of looking at things, a new insight into the human condition. The trick with poetry is to use that which we already possess -- the words -- and turn them in such a way that our own brain is reminded that there are different ways to think. Cows chew grass. This I knew. I could also presume, fairly safely, that they do this even in Vermont. Therefore, I'm presented with nothing new, nor am I stimulated into further thought.
Fallica thomas 46 posts	on May 17 2008 Because poetry is the majesty of any language and the cow chews grass in vermont just isn't majestic
Shannon McEwenfrom Canada 463 posts	on May 17 2008 You are all much too deep for the like of me. Is it or isn't a poem. And who is rght and who is wrong? And is there even any good cows in Vermont anyway. To me the line doesn't go deeper. It's a "tell" not a "show" Sounds more like a title to me. I generally suck at poetry but this has stirred my mood to write. Not that it'll be any better than the one line. ----- Life is what happens while you wait for great things. Life is what happens while you wait for great things.
Laura doomfrom The Divided Queendom Associate, 1336 posts	on June 10 2008 "Is it or isn't a poem. And who is rght and who is wrong?" If someone would care to present a universally applicable definition of 'poetry', then we can decide whether or not Anstey's musterpiece is a poem and put this one to sleep. Otherwise, if it's written as a poem, it's a poem, and if not, it's not. Perhaps we should all adjourn to the 'what is bad poetry' lounge and continue our pontifications there :>
Harper Sheri Fresonke 7 posts	inspired from aphasic on June 10 2008 Aphasic: lol, awesome title--I love the repetition. Sheri
Dave Morris 15 posts	on June 12 2008 a cow chews grass in vermont Is what we're working with, right? Well let's use this as an example, let's try adding and/or take things away from this simple sentence and see if we can turn it into a poem. cow chews grass Vermont would that be a poem? What if I took the original piece and spoke it in a odd manner, where I stress certain words and not others. would that make it a poem? would it change the meaning even if I didn't change the words?
Dave Morris 15 posts	on June 12 2008 Another thought; what if the entity reading this work didn't know cows chewed grass before? or that they could be in Vermont? or that a cow could be 'in' anything? would the revelation and feelings it stirred make it poetry?
Harper Sheri Fresonke 7 posts	on June 12 2008 I recently had the opportunity to judge poems and I think that really great poems have a lot of things going for them that aren't present in this poem. This poem does paint a picture. It was written like a poem. If it was a beginner's poem, I would hate to tell them it wasn't. If I was teaching about it I'd teach about what could be added. I've written many things that might be called bad writing just to get something I thought was my best work. Sometimes the best judge of a question like this belongs in the heart of who did the writing.

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